It just seems that the benefits to the Bush administration from 9/11 are minimal, and the potential costs are SO HUGE that they would have to be the most foolish people on the planet to have undertaken such a plan. Now, I know "the most foolish poeple on the planet" title might be popular for Bush and Co. these days, but this even too stupid for them.

If they had wanted to attack Iraq and Afghanistan, they could have done so without 9/11.

By the way, do the conspiracy theories ever discuss the fact that Bush turned around 9/11 very rapidly between his election and the attacks? He had 9 months... I really think you'd want more time to plan than 9 months. Also, why would he put himself in a school in Florida during the attacks? Wouldn't he have wanted to be in DC, or, even better, NYC, so he could rally the country?

"If they had wanted to attack Iraq and Afghanistan, they could have done so without 9/11."

I'm not so sure about this one, especially Iraq. While I don't believe the 9/11 conspiracies, I do think that 9/11 helped the Bush administration in that 1) it boosted his approval ratings two-fold; 2) it justified his revenge-inspired Iraq invasion; and 3) it got him a second term, the Patriot Act, and a Republican House and Senate.

What more could they've asked for, aside from competency?

Exactly, Ingen -- if you apply the "who benefits?" test, this movie fails. Though whenever I question something like this, I always wonder whether I just don't want to believe.

Thank you for posting that rebuttal. I am so damn sick of these 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists.

I get really pissed off when I hear people start blathering their 9/11 conspiracy theories. You don't need them to have done it to hate their fucking guts, and there are very real issues that very urgently need addressing, like how to get these fuckers to stop the madness- buying into the conspiracy is like admitting defeat. It's like conceding that you'll just have to jerk off for the rest of your life 'cause the rich asshole you've always hated stole the only girl you could ever love and changed her for the worse, forever (sorry for the chauvenist allegory, it's pretty stupid anyway). The believers in the idea that 9/11 was a Bush and Co. conspiracy are lost in the funhouse, and it's fucking pathetic.

I am with CMs comment, and I suspect there might be something even darker behind it all, if you need some quasi-mystical hype in yer life: 9/11 provided the means for the fulfillment (in large part) of the extreme conservative agenda in the last half of the 20th century, and it came in the form of violent, symbolic backlash to a global political, economic and military history that built in the backlash that came... how do I finish this thought? What I'm trying to say is, they didn't need to hatch a conspiracy, because they built a history that made the very outcome they needed (the backlash that allowed them to take it all the way) extremely likely, in one way or another, at one point or another...

I kinda wish I hadn't posted that last post.

Poster's remorse: I know it well. Be comforted that your words are lost within the massive cesspool that is the Internet, dormant until you run for public office.

Good point. Well I've done all sorts of drugs, and coke was the only thing I wasn't that into. Come and get me!

Drugs are funny.

The invasion of Iraq could have gone forward without 9/11. He could have made the same weapons of mass-destruction pitch and it would have worked fine. If anything, he would have had a harder time invading Afghanistan because NOBODY cared about those damned statutes.

The Patriot Act is 99% nothing that anybody cares about. There's a few points of contention, but he could have passed almost all of it without objection.

The approval rating thing you're right about, but it's a small reward for a major risk.

The elections are debatable. The country was moving that direction anyway. 9/11 probably helped it along though.

Bush was going to push a lot of this stuff anyway, 9/11 just greased the wheels a little bit.

nobody seems to remember this, but pre-9/11 it was looking more and more like we were going to war with china, or at least an extended diplomatic conflict. there was the crashed u.s. spy plane they wouldn't give back and lots of saber rattling. At my work, chinese was the major language transfer we were concerned with. In a blink that changed. There hadn't been much funding for Arabic and Pashto, and suddenly there was. Afghanistan and Iraq were much easier targets than China.

Remember when we were going to insider trade on your companies buyout bet we couldn't figure out if we should buy or sell?

Bah, should read: "company's" and "but"

How embarassing.

Jon- I remember well the great global hobgoblin that was China pre-911, but thank you for pointing it out (more people should mention it). It did really look like the stage was being set for the next world war, which does, of course, make one think that the Bush Administration was looking for a raison d'etre, or at least a casus belli before 911 (wow...apologies, I hate pretentious foriegn phrases [especially such hackneyed ones!] being dropped, but I'll use them as rhetorical shortcuts). *anyway* Without belaboring this overly burdened, overly emotional point, I will just say that while I unequivocally agree with Ingen Angiven that these conspiracy theories are beyond the pale, I feel that IA drastically underestimates the gains reaped by the right wing in the wake of the event. In other words, conspiracy theories are really, really missing the point: focus on the exploitation of the event, not the event itself.

PS- I don't want to make much of the Mark Foley sex-scandal (who cares?) but I just want to share with the CM community, if you follow the links to his really wierd and sleazy "tribute to the pages" (2002- wow its wierd, he gets choked up!) there is one absolutely hilarious line where he actually says, referring to the pages, while one C-Span, "they brought me out of the cloakroom!" too perfect.

It is apparent from this dialogue that those reading/responding are from a privelaged class of people. This holds much importance; you haven't felt the neglect and deceit of a system created to prevent you from succeeding. I almost expected someone to tell us activists to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps and succeed.

For all the disenfranchised people out there, they find solace in the conspiracy theories of 9/11 because it seems evident enough that even white suburbanites can catch a smidgen of lies and get involved.

They offer this critique to you people in hopes that you will be able to engage in conversation with them. These distanted Americans long for a true discussion with privelaged people. They want you to offer them empathy as they struggle against an empire so willing and ready to exploit their worth for selfish and greedy ends. (WTO in Seattle)

If we put the "who benefits" test to work with Enron, why would all the patsy's be so willing to make the foolish mistakes they made? Why did Milli Vanilli lip synch? Why did Foley send perverted messages to boy staff members?

You are not the resident Bush, you do not belong to the Project for a New American Century, and if you are writing on this blog you are not part of the borgeausie elite that can do things and get away with it, so don't put your liberal college logic to work for them. They don't go by it.

To Jesse, one of the most urgent issues Americans need to address is that our wealth is coming at the expense of poor people throughout the world. This is a difficult pill to swallow...almost as hard as imagining Bush and Co. could pull of such a stunt as 9/11.

If we look at the history of the US, our government has numerous examples of pulling off some amazing stunts: Assasinations including: Patrice Lumumba (Dem. Rep. of Zaire), Mohamed Mosedeq (Iran), Salvador Allende (Chile), should I continue? I think I will: Martin Luther King Jr. (USA), John F. Kennedy (USA), and Malcolm X (USA). But again, to you, the last three would just be conspiracy talk.

Us Truth seekers don't want the future generations to fret that we didn't have the guts to research this issue, so, when you get frustruted about activists talking about 9/11, just go sip your latte while your child attends private school and our country goes to shit. The third-worldization of the US is upon us and you don't give a damn because of your privaleged position.

I am not dignifying your comment by reading the whole thing. I can stand in absolute 100% solidarity with all the oppressed peoples of the world both in thought and in action without the slightest recourse to conspiracy theory and at the same time without passing a word of judgement on the beliefs of someone dealing with the slums of Mumbai. When I get pissed at conspiracy theorists, I'm thinking of people I've met face to face and they are not struggling to survive in Nablus or in Karachi. From the first few sentences you posted I say that you degrade people struggling the world over by claiming that they are incapable of overcoming some of the massive obstacles they face and making a real analysis of the situation they endure on a daily basis and therefor must have recourse to the fantasy... oh, I just glanced up and noticed that you actually directly responded to me. Thanks so much for enlightening me regarding economic injustice, I've been struggling to figure out just what's going on here for sooooooooo long now and you put it in a way I could never have possibly formulated for myself.

And you can sit on the other end of the internet and have not the vaguest fucking clue what I or anyone else posting on this blog does with our days, where we come from, etc., or you can fuck off. Truth bomb my ass.

1) I'm impressed that cm is being discovered by the wide world of commenters. Do you (cm) know of any links to your site, either by story or entire site, other than soab? Or do you think truth seeker just stumbled here or searched or something?

2) One valid point, we are pretty elite, as a demographic.

3) Happy belated birthday to CrazyMonk (the blog)! One year and counting of glorious time wasting and comment threads. Here's to your future gawkerification!

thanks for your sentiments, but fortunately i'm not nick denton's type.

Please acknowledge the difference between overcoming obstacles and organizing for social change. Many people can overcome obstacles only to earn themselves a spot in a system based on exploitation and oppression, many choose not to do this.

Exposing America's imperial nature is at the heart of those seeking social justice. To expose the lies and intent behind 9/11 would be to expose the true nature of this beast, the oligarcy running the US, and, would offer the best possible circumstances for bringing about true social change in this country.

It is upon this hope that people organize behind the 9/11 truth movement.

Please stop trying to condescend. To assume you have a monopoly on the best ways to expose the truth and organize for social change is seriously presumptuous. It's also seriously presumptuous of you to assume I haven't thought any of this through, that I need your help on the most basic level. Why do I need a conspiracy theory to show me that the country I live in, and by extension the whole world, is under the sway of a demented oligarchy? Why do I need a conspiracy theory when there's Katrina? What is your mode of organizing for social change? I'm much less interested in conspiracy theory- since it's pretty clear to me without one just how fucked up things are- and much more interested in plans of action.

By the way, I'm currently drinking a latte, visiting my Ivy-league child, stomping on a homeless person AND robbing someone's retirement fund. AT THE SAME TIME!

Yes!

I'm going to go back to counting pennies now.

Also, in response to Jon May's question: Technorati says 127.

Okay, but I'm not doing any of the above, just to be clear. Diversity of voices, etc....

technorati's count is meaningless.

I've actually found it fairly accurate. There are discepancies between it and Google's blogsearch tool: blogsearch.google.com... but it's generally not bad.

For a while I was in the top-1000 blogs on the net according to technorati. Now I'm back in the 1300s. That was a fun week. You could almost imagine me hanging out with ZeFrank somewhere.

I think anyone who is able to use the internet regularly could count as the elite. (Particularly if you generalize to the whole world.)

Yeah, I think there's at least some truth to that. Especially if you think of someone who has time to find and select this blog to troll/propagandize.

Also, I really like how "activist" becomes an actual, coherent social class (expecting us to tell "activists to pull themselves up by their bootstraps") in truth bomb's initial commment.

Do you think truth bomb knows soy bomb?

I can only assume that the original "truth bomb" comment is someone's joke...I mean, there are a lot of crazy (and might I add self-rightous) people out there, but referencing Milli-Vanilli in the context of 911, Enron, and Allende? And if not, well, Jesse, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. You can't engage with an incoherent, inconsistent position anyway.

To analyze and critique one's comments is the best way to encourage growth. This wasn't in any way a joke, but rather an expression of existential angst. Finding myself of the privileged class I work to find common ground with those struggling on the front lines to bring about social change at the same time recognizing the benefits I have been given, and, not ready to dispose of them myself.

Of course offering this bit of information will most likely lead to complete ridicule but a group of bloggers ready to challenge others, but, as it seems by offered responses, not ready to accept and evaluate what others have to say.

The real question here is about 9/11 and the potential for possible collusion from the current white house administration. The first comments I read was how stupid people are for talking about the inconsistencies of the 9/11 report, all of which have led young and enthusiastic people to act. To shun them is to shun the spark of a thriving democracy. It is in this act that I find contempt and acting like this is what has created an air of elitism.

I am elite.

That being said, I just don't understand what basis the conspiracy theory has in facts. If you have any facts, I'd be more than happy to hear them out. I love facts.

Conspiracy theories don't tend to do well in modern America. We haven't had a really good one since Iran Contra. It's been twenty-five years since an American leader's really tried to pull a fast one on the world on a grand scale.

I just find it exceedingly difficult to believe that, regardless of how much you may dislike George Bush, he'd be willing to give the order to murder thousands of Americans in such a graphic manner for what I consider to be goals that could, mostly, have been achieved without the sacrifice. The potential downside to George Bush personally are so high (I imagine even the death penalty advocates among us wouldn't mind a public hanging, just this once) that it's very difficult to believe.

The age of the American conspiracy has passed. The truth comes out too quickly now, and the people tend to not appreciate it much. Because of all of this, I think the conspiracy claims are false, but if you have a good counter-story, with facts, I'd love to hear it.

Also, do you know Soy Bomb?

By the way, is 'truth bomb' secretly jbg messing with our heads?

IA, holy crap I was going to post the same exact thing.

With one post TB replaced JBG as the most annoying person on this board. I smell a conspiracy.

jbg knows how to spell.

Oh, no sleep lost whatsoever, but I figured somewhere in there we'd get something like this:
"This wasn’t in any way a joke, but rather an expression of existential angst. Finding myself of the privileged class..."

ha, "existential angst" ... truth bomb must be lost; the conversation about teen movies was a week ago. Let's end this, someone is obviously having some fun with us. Though Lorelei's comment about TB's inability to spell is also pretty funny. How's that for a smackdown from the Preveleged" class, TB?

Liam "the Sexbomb"

When Bush entered into acting President, the white house adopted the Neoconservative agenda.

Here is some historical context to the Neoconservative agenda:

Leo Strauss, a Jewish scholar who fled Hitler’s Germany and taught political science at the University of Chicago. As reported by Shadia Drury in Leo Strauss and the American Right, Strauss advocated an essentially Machiavellian approach to governance.

Strauss believed that:

A leader must perpetually deceive those being ruled
Those who lead are accountable to no overarching system of morals, only to the right of the superior to rule the inferior

Religion is the force that binds society together, and is therefore the tool by which the ruler can manipulate the masses (any religion will do)

Secularism in society is to be suppressed, because it leads to critical thinking and dissent

A political system can be stable only if it is united against an external threat and that if no real threat exists, then one should be manufactured

Strauss taught, among others, Paul Wolfowitz, Newt Gingrich, Clarence Thomas, Irving Kristol, William Bennett, John Ashcroft, and Michael Ledeen.

Michael Ledeen, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and author of Machiavelli on Modern Leadership: Why Machiavelli’s Iron Rules are as Timely and Important Today as Five Centuries Ago (1999), is a policy advisor (via Karl Rove) to the Bush Administration.

The above comment doesn't verify a conspiracy, however, it does create the appearance of motive for a 9/11 catastrophe. Democracy depends upon continuing trust from those being led going to those leading. Such connections do little to foster confidence in those leading us at our current juncture, in fact, this bit of evidence suggests that a 9/11 commission should have aggressively pursued any connections between neocons and 9/11.

Did the commission adequately pursue such leads?

Le sigh.