If you were to estimate, how many people do you genuinely think would alter their
behavior because of what the pope says? Or maybe the more important question is, will
such rhetoric continue to add to bad feelings among people who do not believe people -should- be gay... as if it is a choice.

It might a little among mainstream Catholics, but I think that's a secondary issue. What's more devastating is the effect on up and coming priests, and on the influence of the Catholic church as a humanitarian organization.

The real question is why people who don't agree with the Pope are still in the Catholic church. It's time for those of you who don't agree with him but still call yourself Catholic to start a new church. It happened before and its time for it to happen again.

If you are a true Catholic, you should be following Catholic dogma, if you're not you should get out of the church.

Here, here. Doorframe.

Eh, it's called Episcopalianism.

Also, that's a silly way to view religion. Do you also think all Jewish people who don't follow the laws of Leviticus aren't truly Jewish?

Yes. Religion is silly to begin with, I think you should have to follow the rules if you want to be in the club.

You can always paint yourself with a broader brush and call yourself a Christian to avoid the issue.

The reason the church still has power of people, even though they disagree with its teachings, is because they continue to allow it to excercise power over people. Gone are the days when the church could levy taxes or raise an army. The modern church is mostly a beggar, going from person to person trying sell guilt removal.

If the modern Catholic, tired of Catholic-dogma wanted things to change they could do it through the market, by boycotting. The strange thing is that this has already started to happen. The church started to see massive drops in funding during the priest-sex thing and suddenly they started paying attention. People are being summoned to the Vatican, announcements are being proclaimed. Things started to change.

If you believe in gay rights, and you think it's an important issue, you have no business giving money to the Catholic church.

I don't entirely disagree, and I personally haven't given money to the Catholic church aside from a few dollars every Christmas (and that goes mostly to the local congregation anyway). I have a feeling that their big gay donors (if any) will probably stop their donations.

But I also think it's important to separate Catholicism the institution from Catholicism the personal and traditional religion of many people and cultures. I'm willing to tell my parents my disapproval of the Pope's actions, but I would never ask them to leave their religion.

Right, but your parents endorse the Pope on this issue, so there's no reason why they would leave the religion. If your parents were strong supporters of gay rights, would you think it was out of line to ask them to leave the religion?

My parents aren't actually big fans of the current Pope, and I'm not sure they endorse the Pope on this issue either.

They're not big fans of the current Pope? How come? Is it the Nazi thing?

I'll have to ask again, but my feeling was that it's because he doesn't come off as compassionate as the previous Pope. On the other hand, my mom told me that she was in tears when they nominated him, as a reaction to the historical moment.

Crazymonk, did you watch any of the pope John Paul made for tv movies that have
been on recently?

No, sir.

Everyone of them. Weeping. I brought him tissues.

Neither did I. I want to know if your mom watched some though, crazymonk.

I'll have to ask.

crazymonk, your jewish analogy is wrong. judaism is not dogmatic and not every denomination follows the same level of observance or interpretation. not even every rabbi does -- it's a religion based on individual interpretation, on study, on discussion, on argument. (it's why we're so opinionated).

which is precisely why doorframe is right -- it IS time for catholics to reject a dogmatic church. i'd prefer this to happen right here, and for american catholics to start a new, libearl American Catholic church. don't reject the teachings of jesus, or the mystery-aspect of catholicism -- just resist the blind dogma of a political body, intent on remaining relevant by reverting to medeival mentalities.

anyway, having said all that, all religion is stupid, belief in god is akin to mental retardation, and all christians should shut the fuck up.

Wait, jbg says I'm right? I change my opinion. I love Jesus.

don't you mean jebus?

and don't be an idiot. most catholics aren't bad people -- they're just led that way.